I read an article yesterday about small mainstream churches driven to the wall by the migration to the megas being forced to lease their vacant during the week facilities to small businesses in order to generate enough income to keep the doors open. Shout it from the housetops!! Oh, they couldnt get away with that completely. it is wrong. I know we have to hunt to keep down the population of wild creatures, especially in areas where they dont have any natural predators, so they dont destroy the environment and/or starve. View All Webcasts TV Broadcasts Devotion Greg's Blog Virtue Radio Greg Laurie Podcast Harvest Events Ebooks HBF disbanded in 2017. Dallas was in charge of Production and Visual Media at HBC. I am interested in seeing what TWW readers will pull out if Jenkins letter. So instead of trying to defend these rascals, I prefer to inform and warn the church about the wolves in their midst rather than giving them a break. I have personally seen that place and I want no one to go there. I suppose you would doubt your own mother? I was asked. PRESBYTER = ELDER = OVERSEER = BISHOP = PASTOR = SHEPHERD. dee: along with all the boys at SEBTS who dont want to leave the area so there are popup churches in every strip mall. Ishy: Noevangelical: So do you think this is something like Stockholm Syndrome? Jenkins is jealous that he couldnt run the con as well as Jmac. Acts 20:17, Paul called the elders. 1 Peter 5:1, Peter exhorted the elders. It is never one individual who rules over the church, but a group of people, the elders. Once fear grasps and security is sought, the ability and desire to do the right thing and think critically becomes nearly impossible when it means you too could be hurt or humbled. Hes earned his money, Wow. Single pastor, plural pastors, plurality of elders, are pastors even a thing? January 19, 2016 Subscribe to Podcast What's in this session? They deserve each other. I believe if Jesus was here today, He would be sitting around the campfire drinking beer with the boys! Max responding properly (thats all I will say). Runnin bear dove in the water, little white dove did the same Bridget: I dont know, Ken. I am willing to bet that MacDonald has been on the horn with Driscoll to see how he transitioned to Scottsdale after Mars Hill imploded. SiteSeer: This is so very true! To make up for their very tiny, um sense of self-esteem. Humility is required. Sadly, many have not served well. He claimed to be a guy who could show people the way. Indeed. Praise God for TWW and other watchblogs who do their best to get the word out on these guys, but you cant stop the spiritually illiterate from attending their exciting churches. Dallas Jenkins, Executive Director, Vertical Church Media at Harvest Bible Chapel, and son of Jerry Jenkins of Left Behind fame, tells stories for a living and shares insider info about producing and directing films at Harvest in this session of the Pro Church Podcast. Our inaugural ministry in the heart of Chicago began on September 20, 2009, with a mobile campus that met for worship on Sunday nights at a school in Wicker Park. Abigail: Why would anyone want to kill a magnificent creature like that? Thats it right there. It is always, My friends are here, My kids depend on the youth group, or Who is going to bury me?. I have my faith left, but so much that I thought was real about my faith has been shaken off. Talk is cheap lets see some action. Born in Dallas and growing up in Little Rock, . Worse, I believe this shows arrogance on Dees part And believe you me Unless you give facts and verifiable information how do we know this is not part of a plan to cover things up? not covetous Because MacDonald earned it. Redemption is a gift, freely offered to one and all. Many a victim of domestic or spiritual abuse might have been better protected by understanding this reality. Conversational-type sermons, contemporary worship music, come-as-you-are. ), Law Prof: If we just got back to that model, the one the early church leaders generally followed . You have any lies and untrue rumors to highlight that are being spread here, out with them. Where in scripture does God say that elders have authority over those they care for, or that elders should rule over them? The NT clearly outlines the positive attributes I am talking about.. Having re-read the letter a few times now I find it to be more of a CYA document than anything else. Didnt Paul rejoice from prison that the gospel was preached, whether from false motives or true? It was not just Jmac who was enriching himself. The damage he has done is incalculable. i understand the losses you describe, and experience them, too. what are these things you see in such people that you identify as being grace-filled? Dallas Jenkins Net Worth. While I dont agree with all PJ says, I will say that I too have concerns whenever free speech is abridged, however well intended the reasons. One can only guess at the motive behind their inaction, but even with the most basic discernment skills one could easily surmise that the money train was at the heart. Straight up, you need to rethink this. john, i truly suspect that the only difference between my friends & family i described above and the grace-filled believer you describe is window dressing: vocabulary used when speaking, a smiley face, a tone of voice, body language. The problem with deception is that you dont know you are deceived because you are deceived. Its happening now; how many of us are refugees from groups that went awol? However, a Calvinist fanboy and wannabe celebrity showed up spouting Piper, Driscoll and insisted on hiring a guy from Sovereign Graces mothership-CLC. elastigirl: there was no way i could see that movie, even as a full-fledged crusty, jaded adult. Of course it does require set up of chairs, nursery area, etc., and the take down every week and people who are committed to doing that. Movies Popular Now Playing Upcoming Top Rated TV Shows Popular Airing Today On TV Top Rated People In reality, if the undeniable evidence leads to the sad realization that our most beloved parent, spouse, child or pastor is not who we have believed them to be, we must be willing to deal with the facts. They are needles in the haystack, rare and endangered species, last of the Mohicans so I will cheer them on rather than applauding those who masquerade as angels of light. Peter wrote, Shepherd the flock of God which is among you Paul said, take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers The number of bishops is always plural, but the jurisdiction of these overseers is singular. Its not all of it, but its certainly a substantive portion. I feel like all of the verses you quoted would work just as well if it was translated the older, mature believers in the church. I see nothing denoting an office. It seems like to me that in a group of people, these things sort themselves out without anyone declaring it to be a position and appointing people to it. Dallas, maybe you should read the red letter Bible the T. Jefferson compiled from the King James Version? Its actually pretty simple to pick out the false ones. Harvest was known for emphasizing unapologetic preaching of the Bible, unashamed adoration of God's Son, unafraid witness to the gospel, and unceasing prayer. The last thing that Christendom needs is to see him back in the pulpit. Thats a rare bird, indeed, in the American church. I hate using this corporate example but if you have a CEO of your company who does not meet the qualifications for that job, what happens? The Didache and letters of Ignatius and Clement confirm this, as well as other writings from the early second century. Some things are great for a public airing, where its completely right. I didnt want these points to go unmade. Unless, trying very hard to see it from the inside' their vision of God, whom they reckon they were imitating, is more arbitrary, capricious, violent and domineering than mine. This all happens when we gather, grow and go together as followers of Jesus. . There are some 30,000 Christian denominations and parachurch organizations in the world. He is not egotistical, and not, as is so falsely asserted, all about getting glory he is all about stepping through the barriers of time and space to reveal his gentle, sacrificial love for us. My hands STILL shake as I write this the culture was rampant with fear, control and utter mismanagement my archived emails attest to it. If Paul was a rogue usurper, Luke was the co-conspirator who legitimized the takeover. This all happens when we gather, grow and go together as followers of Jesus. Looking forward to the recording of a worship night on Thursday, March 2. I adhere to the never-say-never adage but cant even remotely imagine EVER being involved with a church again. Something major happened this evening and I will speak about when I can. I share this for all who, like me, are overcome with new sadness, pain and loss amidst the HBC, Willow, Catholic church, ECFA, SBC, GFA, etc. Begin your journey with the prayer. Thats their business, doesnt have jack to do with church abuse. He intended this confession to go to elders onlyand is angry that it got into the hands of those not in that rarified air. or being in a job that is problematic and you know there is something that pays more, treats you better, and is more up your alley yet there is still comfort in what is familiar. Perpetua herself (the presumed writer of most of the Acts) also spends a lot of time talking about prophetic dreams and suchlike. God looks lovingly upon your confusion and pain, and wants nothing more than for you to find and know him as he truly is, apart from all of the hypocrisy and falsity that parades as the institutional church. Yet with their plausible and attractive arguments they deceive those who are too simple-hearted to see through them (Romans 16:17). and on the iceberg? And particularly sad to see younger church folks not benefiting from the council of senior saints. Both HBC and WBC had a plurality of Yes-Men Courtiers around a Pastor/Dictator O COME LET US ADORE HIM!. Rich: I just know that if one of the callers in my English Country Dance or Contra Dance communities was screaming at people or even talking in a consistently rude way, that would not stand for a day, let alone years. We swore our allegiance to him. Trust me, youre not. When the Elders terminated James, the named only three sins (abuse, domineering behavior, and inappropriate language) that did not reflect the entirety of the content between all of the statements. Same thing church leaders told Mars Hill members after Driscolls exit and Willow Creek after Hybels exit. If church leaders throughout Christendom wont take a stand to expose wayward peers and rebuke their ministry endeavors, it will be up to the pew to do this important task to inform and warn others in the Body of Christ to beware. Never to leave me alone! Dallas was complicit in this, and hes still complicit in attempting to hide the truth. Ishy: These churches treat women so badly, but promise men all sorts of things, Matt Chandler says I preach to men. He calls female believers at TVC our girls while hes ensnares them with the beauty of complementarity., NJ: From all the people I know in those churches, I think thats exactly what happens! James mocking his own flock with his outrageous private Cabo party to end all parties, with the $50,000 magician, wont go unanswered. Chapel (Spiritual Life Conference): Dr. Jim Allman. The place is not worth saving. Does that make you manly? Sad. Jenkins: Yeah, I did the original Christmas short solely as something for my church's Christmas Eve service [said church being Harvest Bible Chapel in Chicago]. Dallas Jenkins is the creator, director and co-writer of The Chosen, which in addition to being the first multi-season series about the life of Christ is also the most successful media crowdfund of all time. But how long, under the sort of behavior he and others depict, can one be excused for overlooking the facts? Jenkins is a former member of the Executive Leadership Team at Harvest Bible Chapel, the Rolling Meadows-based church that fired James MacDonald its founder and senior pastor for comments . For example, priests cannot conduct divine liturgy without laity present, the liturgy cannot proceed without the participation of the laity saying amen during various parts of the liturgy and prayers, and bishops cannot ordain priests with the amen of the laity in the congregation. I have purposely maintained my distance from my current pastor for that very reason. The mega-masters vocalize Jesus occasionally and even talk about Him from a gospel vantage point. Our '3rd Service' is an online experience drawn from our live Weekend Gatherings. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. Not. Lord knows weve had enough explosions in the modern church. He has not let us down, and even now is exposing these wolves. This is not to defend JM or associates, but to note that the vision of eternal punishments that motivates (or justifies, or both) a lot of ministry in churches in the Western theological tradition (I keep coming back to that; sorry, but I have come to believe its important) puts a very heavy weight on one side of the cost/benefit calculus in ministry. The size of the Elgin Campus allowed us to fulfill a dream: A preschool through grade 12 Christian school, to help us implant the truths of Gods Word into the hearts of young people five days a week in addition to the weekend. I think this is how these pastors maintain tribal loyalties. I dont have any answers. Someone asked How high does this go? Kinda hard to swear praise and honor to the sovereign terminator while feeling sorry for his victims at the same time. Does anyone here think Dallas wouldnt have delighted in pointing out a series of lies being told about Harvest leaders and defending himself? No announcement, no warning, just Have something I want you to see. Then suddenly Boom, there it was on the screen. It seems fairly common that if the truly informed Reformed do not return to their faith in a God who loves all men they eventually end up atheists. Anonymity is not the same thing as cowardice, but thanks so much for playing that tired old game. If the elders are in place primarily because they are buds of the pastor (yes-men), wealthy, prominent in the community, popular in the church but do not meet the Biblical qualifications to serve in that sacred office if there is no evidence in their lives of being filled with the Holy Spirit and being above reproach then you have a Harvest Bible Chapel or Willow Creek mess waiting to happen, regardless of the size of the ministry. LLS, honest question in all of these elder rule setups Ive ever seen, there is no mechanism at all for pew peons to do as you note and hold elders accountable for anything. Sunday services, weekly small groups, other events all give meaning to peoples lonely lives, and the rest is mostly fluff. Dallas Jenkins stood with his arms crossed, facing the sunrise, a swath of orange clouds brushing the blue-gray mountains and yellow sky. I think the issue of the type of leadership structure is much less important than the character of the people running the show. Dee kindly explained my comment had been flagged because of some word in it and I wasnt blocked. In full disclosure, not even a full prof or anything big, just a lecturerand a snarky middle aged guy who was such a great lawyer I had to get a job teaching to make a living. Muff Potter: The daughter of Matt Slick (big-gun-reformed-apologist) converted to fundamental atheism. Every church should be safe and reliable. Be wary of falling into the trappings you so boldly wish expose. I think its one of the reasons that the mega movement has been so attractive to laity as well as leaders; they imagine that a bigger, more resource-rich group will be able to rescue more people from the terrible fate they would otherwise experience. At regiment and higher scale, the CO is at the rear, managing subordinate commanders with the aid of his staff officers. Noevangelical, lets get a bunch of our favorite beverages, cheese, olives, chocolate, cigars and a candle and well continue on. Thats it! You can ONLY imagine the slowly erupting chaos that ensued. He will be infecting thousands more with his toxicity, greed, vulgarity and cruelty. Im holding out hope that my faith in God will survive, but truth be told, some days that seems uncertain as well (and save yourself the time writing me about how my faith must not have been that deep if indeed Im struggling with God and Jesus). I have a feeling even if we thought there was, theres stuff going on we cant see. I struggle to pray, to read the Bible. this is because the powerbrokers have the mic. If such practices exist, someone needs to out them once and for all, rather than making elusive statements about the culture of fear. You dont even need a Pastor/Dictator at the peak for things to go sour. But if these offices are wrong it means the wheels fell of of the Church extremely early in its history. Does it matter if they were technically doing it right if it ends up with a lot of shredded Christians on the other side? Our youngest daughter, Leah was married this week to Alexei, a wonderful young man! You do not have to be a member of some man-made institution to be a child of God. Dallas Jenkins is the Producer and Director of the largest crowd-funded media project of all-time, a multi-season series about the life of Christ entitled The Chosen. I will admit I now find it kind of shocking that a guy who never knew Jesus in life could muscle his way in and call himself an apostle among the other apostles. JDV: This verse came to mind: For it is the time for the judgment to have begun from the house of God; and if from us first, what will be the outcome of those disobeying the gospel of God? (1 Peter 4:17) The business-first model that seems so pervasive and knocks down just about any scrutiny until there is videotaped evidence would seem to fit somewhere in that spectrum, no? TS00: Never, and I mean never, have I heard someone say, I would leave, but I just cant survive without the gifted teaching. No self-declared elders have authority over anyone who does not put their voluntary and continued trust in them. Quit trying to privatize and hide in secret that which should be public. The wheels of justice turn slowly. First Church Plant - Harvest Bible Fellowship The posting of it on this website is unfortunate, as are many of the false rumors in the comments both here and on Twitter from anonymous people. More leaders must take a stand and shine the light of truth. GOD SAITH!!!!!. MacDonalds lavish lifestyle drove Thompson to leave the church. Max: And to link them together as a Body of Christ, each one uniquely gifted to be a part of the whole something the institutional church just doesnt appear to get.Whose job is the ministry?Every believer has a part!When we separate believers into clergy vs. laity, pulpit vs. pew, us vs. them failing to equip and mobilize the saints to do the work of the ministry we miss what God intended for His Church and fall short of living in the Kingdom of Heaven here and now.Jesus talked a LOT about living in the Kingdom we would do well to read His words living in the church doesnt always mean living in the Kingdom.Based on my 70-year snapshot of the institutional church, theres a vast difference in what Christ describes vs. what we have put together in this thing we call church. Cool bands, espresso coffee, relevant sermons, fun and fellowship, etc, In the words of the Prophets Emerson, Lake, and Palmer: I believe that would be the consensus of the Body of Christ at large, after getting a glimpse of his shenanigans. I do not live to approve comments. Are you kidding me right now? Amy Moore: execs like CFO Fred Adams and COO Scott Milholland going into church consulting are the most dangerous. No christain organization should have the artibutes that we are reading about, and that Mr Jenkins letter validates. ex HCA Staff: Someone should also dig into the incident regarding the video of Mel Gibsons Passion of the Christ that was shown to HCA ELEMENTARY school children without any warning or notice to parents in the first year of the schools history during Holy Week. A flock without herdsmen will quickly go astray. It was leaked. Harvests former CFO, Fred Adams, now runs a sketchy consulting group that helps wealthy elite church insiders set up secret LLCs to buy church buildings so that the churches can then transfer wealth to them in the form of both monthly rentals instead of building equity for the members, while also authorizing the campuses to make major improvements and expansions that cost millions, which will then belong to the LLC owners, not the flock. Every jot and every tittle is just as if the Almighty is still thundering out of Horeb through Paul. Im becoming increasingly wary of the megachurch model. And perhaps we should remember that Jesus did not come to set up authoritative institutions, but to gather his individual lost sheep. . In 2001, the Crystal Lake Campus began as the second Harvest church plant then transitioned to a campus, officially launching on September 1, 2007. Nothing to be ashamed of. and they have everyone scared spitless that if they vocalize their concerns about what is unethical in their church, & in their tribe, they will disappoint God, Well, Amy, youve provided us a rather disgusting look at the character of these characters! TS00: sometimes I feel pretty alone in this wilderness. Founded in 1988, it has grown to seven campuses in the Chicago metropolitan area. having faithful children Concerned for the vulnerable animals safety, he left his own gun by its side. He sat there for years and participated when people were being bullied and abused, being screamed at by their pastor and boss to the point of tears, watching hundreds of thousands of dollars being spent profligately. It wasnt all self-interest; they actually thought that good was being accomplished in spite of the bad conduct behind the scenes. Christ gave Himself for His people and that kind of sacrificial self-giving love was meant to be characteristic of those who stood in Christs place in offices of authority in the churches. Youre right to say kind of. My Savior stands between We all know who is trustworthy, mature and wise to go to for advice or counsel. Jesus held onto me and he will hold onto you. Their motives seem to have got in the way of what character development might otherwise have taken place (which certainly is reminiscent of present conditions in at least some of the churches). This resource is better: https://www.archbalt.org/clergy-personnel-division/bishops-priests-deacons/. Friend: What bothers me about the megas is not just the bad theology and oppression, but the sheer size. In our common language, we use the word elder to describe one who is older than ourselves. Harvest Kids meet at 9:00a (Nursery-5th) + 11.00a (Nursery-3yrs). Why you gotta be so mean? Taylor Swift. The big issue I have is with the idea that there is this one leader, a high office that this one guy occupies in a church called the pastor. That was 30 years ago and it proved to be true. Remember, God is the master designer!!. I wonder whether it might not be better to simply abandon the entire property-owning paradigm and return to the original practice of meeting in public places (for large groups) and in homes (for small groups). So Guidepost "determined that using Twitter was no longer an option for them." HBC Youth Bible Study. I am now beginning to wonder if it is not simply the beginning of wisdom. If for no other reasons, the statements must be public so that the people of HBC see what their Elders saw. That included giving James $20K-$30K a MONTH to spend just on T&E. Id only add that the scar and damage to my faith as a result of Harvest is real, deeply painful, and permanent. Both HBC & WC had a plurality of elders and a single pastor as the head of their church. At Harvest, the elders oversee the doctrine, direction, and discipline of the church. Consider the following Scriptures: For a bishop [EPISKOPOS] must be blameless, as a steward of God, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money. (Titus 1:7), Paul and Timothy, bondservants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, with the bishops [EPISKOPOS] and deacons (Philippians 1:1). Also, your letter simply further bolsters credibility of the excellent work from the Elephants Debt and Julie Roys. There is no question that MacDonald was running the elders. At the very least, they need to reveal ALL they know, including leading the charge to open all of the financial books, including known and secret accounts. of seeing the beauty of the kindness of strangers, the beauty of love and faithfulness, of integrity at personal cost demonstrated by human beings everywhere. As of 2020, they now gather as City Line Church. TS00: I dont know, if one follows Twitter, there are several who have commented that attended church with JMac in his youth, and they have nothing positive to say about him or his character from way back. And all youre ever going to be is mean elastigirl: why does it matter what Max thinks, I took your text out of context a bit, so forgive me. Harvest Bible Chapel looks forward to the future as we continue training up ministry leaders, pastors and church plants that seek to fulfill the Great Commission in Matthew 8:28. You came to Chicago to work at Harvest Bible Chapel in Elgin with the hope of making movies through its Vertical . The leaders of Harvest clearly did not shin light of problems; in fact it well documented now they were bullies/godfathers supressing thetruth. There were kindergarten through 5th graders AND many of us parents / employees, who did not know it was going to be shown. PJ, with the loss of religious heritage a forgone conclusion, I suspect they will next be raping our children of their identities, if they havent already. I read your posts as a searing, agonized, utterly sincere *cri de ceour. They deliberately employ a faulty theology to ensnare and use others for their own ends. If a church tries to appoint elders who dont meet the qualifications for eldershipthe church dies. So I want to say Than. As City Line church Harvest is real, deeply painful, and permanent and permanent anyone want kill! Lies being told about Harvest leaders and defending himself work at Harvest chapel. Our common language, we use the word ELDER to describe one who is older ourselves... Using Twitter was no way i could see that movie, even as a crusty. Harvest leaders and defending himself abigail: Why would anyone want to kill a magnificent creature that. Mostly fluff are the most dangerous vulgarity and cruelty today, he left his gun. 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